Curse

Caco-Cola · May 30, 2005, 10:24 AM // 10:24

I don't know why I bother saying I won't return to posts, it never happens. I always have to defend myself again.

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Yes, your 40 something skills might do quite nicely against people who don't know what they are doing. But when you finally get to any sort of serious competative level such as Guild vs Guild or even an organized team build you will be snuffed plain and simple. When you are up against a team that is completely upgraded with ideal runes and ideal equipment and doing enough spike damage to kill you in 2 1/2 seconds while managing to shut down your monks at the same time you might get some idea of what this game is really about.

Not true. What do you define as 'high end' PvP? Hall of Heros serves me quite well. And the fact remains that they can't tell what you're using so how the hell are they gonna defend against it if they don't know what to defned against?

I don't have 'delusions of adequacy'. I've played the game since the betas and am 99% confident in what I"m saying.

I still see no need for a UAS button. Didn't back then and still don't.

And you can't tell me I haven't fought against organized teams because I have. Have fought in and against them.

And ok yes I can die in 2 seconds if I can't ether feast. But that's because Mesmers are inherently weak. It comes with the territory.

But then again I can spirit shackle them, Energy surge them, energy tap them, and uh oh there goes their energy. Hope they have a monk backing them up while Phantasm is eating at their health.

And by no means do I have 'ideal runes and ideal equipment'.

I have full runes and one major vigor (to help counter my major) if that's what your talking about. I see no reason to have full Superior rune set though. That's just a waste of health. Minor does me just fine (12 domination, 12 inspiration, 11 fast casting, 7 illusion).

But do I really need a staff that does beyond 11-21 damage (what I have, pre-customized damage)?

I rarely use my staff as it is. I don't lay off the spell casting enough to warrant a better staff than that.

Still not seeing the need of a "give me everything I want with the click of a button" button.

Anyways, time to sleep, I'll get back to this when I get home tomorrow.

FluidFox · May 30, 2005, 10:37 AM // 10:37

I am not and never have been... (and never will be) and advocate of the unlock all skills button. It was fun for beta but I'm glad it stayed there.

Here is my argument for getting the best possible selection of skills... there are many skills that are nearly useless by themselves but are insanely powerful when used in a combo with a team build. However, team builds like that are only possible if the person designing them can be confidant that the people playing with them have access to those skills. Your attidude is fine for pick up groups in tombs and I'm sure you have one build that works well for you. But it does make you rather one dimensional when it comes to diverse strategy. Pick up groups are the kiddie pool. It is a whole different game when you are with a team of people you know using a build that has been refined and designed from the entire skill list. Many characters in these builds are specifically designed to play off the strengths of the other team members to form a more powerful whole. And when builds like this are correctly executed, they will demolish any pick up group out there.

It basically comes down to the fact that if you only have the skills that you deem useful at the moment, it will severly limit you later on. The name of the game is versatility. And at the moment it doesn't seem like you are going to have much of that.

SOT · May 30, 2005, 10:43 AM // 10:43

Everytime I login to these forums, I am reminded just how SERIOUS this game is taken by a large number of highly intelligent, but emotionally over-invested people. I am still not ascended, and am just now exploring Lion's Arch, but I am getting all I need for the road ahead...So...I guess I am trying to say "calm down and play"

Wesley Wyndam-Pryce · May 30, 2005, 10:51 AM // 10:51

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Originally Posted by Caco-Cola

What do you mean you get 'so few skill points'?

I have 35 skill points that I'm not even using and I've finished the game and am in the PvP phase of the game.

There is no 'grind'.

The grind is made by the people who are too lazy to do things themselves and want instant gratification. They call it 'grind' cause they actually have to work for something.

You sir, are wrong.

I love PvE, and I'm a huge PvPer. I love going out and hunting mass amounts of mobs for cash and loot. I've done this so many hours, in so many MMO's and other rpgs that I've lost count.

And I do it in GW. And yet, in GW it is a god damn grind. "Oh look I got 3 purples, 1 gold and 5 blues out of 5 runs" maybe 2 of them are runes, 1 being a rune I've already unlocked, another rune that is completely useless to me.

"K, I'm going to capture this skill we really need for PvP" Attempt 1, spend 30 minutes getting to location of boss, he doesn't spawn. Attempt 2, see Attempt 1. Attempts 3-8, see Attempt 1.

And so on and so forth.

I do not mind working through mobs, to get what I need. I do not mind multiple tries. I do mind spending the majority of my time doing this. I've been lvl 20, the cap, ascended, completed the game, for some time now. Quite some time now. I've gotten enough gold off of skill hunting, and rune hunting to buy the 15k armor set, three times over, and yet not find 1 single rune I really need, or cap the skills I really need.

So please, don't compare your experience that may have gone to your liking, to that of others who hate this grind.

FluidFox · May 30, 2005, 11:59 AM // 11:59

There is very little grind involved in getting your character through the game... but a massive amount currently required to flesh out your skill set with elites and get your rune and item upgrade library up to par.

I would say about 5-10% of the total grind required actually has anything to do with leveling up your characters. The other 90% is the invisible grind tied to the unlocking system.

DrSLUGFly · May 30, 2005, 12:35 PM // 12:35

It seems people like to consistently argue about this topic... I've been following on several threads in a few forums (and I've posted this comment in a few threads I think too)

I play PvE, I don't see grind at all.
I think PvP players are right, they're grinding pointlessly.

What if, in order to play the role-play aspect of the game, what if in order to go through the storyline and even leave pre-searing ascalon, I had to first win 100 matches in PvP with pick-up groups? How long do you think I (or any other player who's primarily interested in PvE) would play the game? Probably not long enough to rack up the 100 wins needed to start. For PvP players this is a very similar situation, in order to seriously compete they must play through a game that they're not so interested in and would rather bypass entirely.

Does this make them wrong or blind for "playing the game wrong"??? Of course not, the versatility of the game allows them to do this, I think it's a great versatility.

A proposed solution (if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem). I love when my server wins the favor of the gods, not because I can go to the underworld, I've never been there. I love it because I know that I have heroes fighting on my behalf in the HoH and winning the favor of the gods for me. I want to contribute as well, but as a PvE player. I want to be able to do certain quests that would unlock specific runes or skills for the next 5 teams entering the Arena, or to do something that unlocks a skill for people in my class in the Arena, or perhaps makes the skill available for a limited time from a specific skill trainer.

PvP players are valid in their complaints about grind and PvE players are valid when they say "what grind?" I want to be able to contribute to PvP and reducing their grind by "grinding on their behalf."

Xellos · May 30, 2005, 12:48 PM // 12:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by BE|Dac

One note:

Every single thread entitled, WTF WHERE IS THE GRIND? STOP CRYING?

always starts with..

Well i'm new to this game and have got to Lion's arch and so far I haven't noticed any grind?

Well Gee Mister, maybe thats cuz you haven't played long enough?

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/a...tachmentid=586

here is a checklist of skills in the game. How many have you got? Even close?

Now add in runes, then item mods.

This post just owned every single person who dare claims there is no grind :P

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Not true. What do you define as 'high end' PvP? Hall of Heros serves me quite well. And the fact remains that they can't tell what you're using so how the hell are they gonna defend against it if they don't know what to defned against?

For sure, Halls is pretty decent, but again, you have no idea what your talking about. It'd take a bookload to type out all the reasons why you are wrong, all the theories and crap. Experience teaches much faster. Try winning HoH from any of top guilds or teams. Then try holding it.

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I don't have 'delusions of adequacy'. I've played the game since the betas and am 99% confident in what I"m saying.

Time doesn't mean skill, that's what was advertised. Are you claiming your time is equal to other's skill?

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And you can't tell me I haven't fought against organized teams because I have. Have fought in and against them.

I'm confused about the second sentence. Fought in and against them? Me confused

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And ok yes I can die in 2 seconds if I can't ether feast. But that's because Mesmers are inherently weak. It comes with the territory.

Ether Feast is 2 second cast, since they cast first obviously, how do you plan on living?

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But then again I can spirit shackle them, Energy surge them, energy tap them, and uh oh there goes their energy. Hope they have a monk backing them up while Phantasm is eating at their health.

Please don't try to make it sound like you know top tier metagame. If you went to another forum, people would laugh and point out. If you want to prove your creditable, don't list things like our victories, or your strategies, rather show how you understand the game mechanics. No one can argue with that.

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Everytime I login to these forums, I am reminded just how SERIOUS this game is taken by a large number of highly intelligent, but emotionally over-invested people. I am still not ascended, and am just now exploring Lion's Arch, but I am getting all I need for the road ahead...So...I guess I am trying to say "calm down and play"

Well, I believe it is nice that people are taking a vested interest in the game, and are willing to put hours and hours just to back up what they say. It proves the game is a success. But when people put their emotions into the game, it somewhat gives a big bullseye on their face, one which if punched, will make the mods angry

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I would say about 5-10% of the total grind required actually has anything to do with leveling up your characters. The other 90% is the invisible grind tied to the unlocking system.

Lvl 3 ascenscion, more like .01%.

I think there needs to be like, a debate rule thread. Because constant emotional and personal input really kills the arguements, plus it sometimes pushes people over the board and start violating the other rules.

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A proposed solution (if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem). I love when my server wins the favor of the gods, not because I can go to the underworld, I've never been there. I love it because I know that I have heroes fighting on my behalf in the HoH and winning the favor of the gods for me. I want to contribute as well, but as a PvE player. I want to be able to do certain quests that would unlock specific runes or skills for the next 5 teams entering the Arena, or to do something that unlocks a skill for people in my class in the Arena, or perhaps makes the skill available for a limited time from a specific skill trainer.

This idea is gold. GOLD.

sama · May 30, 2005, 01:34 PM // 13:34

xellos, do you remember ensign's sig quote?

pm me if you don't and i'll remind you what you're doing wrong =)

Cymmina · May 30, 2005, 02:11 PM // 14:11

No matter what ANet does, someone will whine. That's life.

I now have 2 ascended characters and NEVER farmed for upgrades/runes. I have superior vigor, 2 warrior, 2 ranger, 1 monk, 4 ele, 1 necro, and for the mesmer I have 3 minor and 2 major. Maybe I'm just super lucky, because 90% of them were from doing missions (and since I usually only do missions with henchmen and had 14 deaths when I completed ascention, guess how often I had to repeat missions). The other 10% were while messing around exploring and getting to all the minor towns for additional skill vendors.

Now, if you want to try and tell me that you *need* every single skill to be viable in PvP, I'm going to laugh in your face. How are the beastmastery skills useful in PvP? Oh, they aren't because bringing a pet into PvP is pretty dumb when their death makes you unable to do anything for 10 seconds. If I know I will only ever play Domination/Inspiration mesmer, guess what? I won't need to buy any skills from the Illusion line.

My mesmer has 141 hours into her and a healthy collection of skills including 10 mesmer, 7 monk, and 2 necro elites. I went hog wild and bought more skills than I will probably use. I never actually ran out of skill points when I really wanted a specific skill.

Caco-Cola · May 30, 2005, 03:37 PM // 15:37

Xellos:

I post on 4 forums acutally. This one, The Guild Hall, GW Europe (hate their theme though, eye sore), and RPG stars sparingly (it's not really all that active, this and Guild Hall seem to be the most active).

My second statement of me playing against and in the groups means I"ve played against the groups and in them, I don't see how you don't understand that.

Ether Feast isn't a two second cast when you have 11 fast cast.

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Please don't try to make it sound like you know top tier metagame. If you went to another forum, people would laugh and point out. If you want to prove your creditable, don't list things like our victories, or your strategies, rather show how you understand the game mechanics. No one can argue with that.

Yah that doesn't make sense. You're contradictin gyourself saying I don't understand how the game works yet I just told you how to combine 4 skills effectively with one another and there's a lot more you can do with that.

Telling me to win the HoH against a top guild is pretty stupid. I'm not even in a guild at the moment so an organized PUG is hard to come by. I got one last night but we had like 1 healer for the whole team and it just didn't work out that well. We got to the third match (not counting the first part where you get the morale boosts) and then lost.

That was one of the better PUGs I've been in on HoH. By no means the best but one of the better ones.

And Wesley what are you talking about? You want every drop to drop a gold? Is that what you're saying? Sure seems like it.

Nothing says you have to grind, that's just that nagging voice int eh back of your head that cries out 'I have to have the most ubar equipment in the game to even compete!'

Maybe if you're a warrior I guess, maybe a ranger. All the other classes really rely on skills though. (actually EVERY class does to some extent but warriors can dish out damage without their skills, just not as much. Rangers not as much but their skills compliment their weapon so, yah, Same thing pretty much).

At least I know Mesmer does. I do a whole 6 damage with my cane (11-21 +20% req 9 domination magic, which I have and then some.)

FluidFox · May 30, 2005, 11:09 PM // 23:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caco-Cola

Xellos:

Yah that doesn't make sense. You're contradictin gyourself saying I don't understand how the game works yet I just told you how to combine 4 skills effectively with one another and there's a lot more you can do with that.

Telling me to win the HoH against a top guild is pretty stupid. I'm not even in a guild at the moment so an organized PUG is hard to come by. I got one last night but we had like 1 healer for the whole team and it just didn't work out that well. We got to the third match (not counting the first part where you get the morale boosts) and then lost.

That was one of the better PUGs I've been in on HoH. By no means the best but one of the better ones.

)

Combining 4 whole skills together doesn't exactly require any sort of virtuoso level of skill you know. It does show competence, (which is sometimes in short supply) but it isn't going to impress anybody.

I'm also a little dismayed that one of the BETTER pick up groups you've been in only had one person healing and only made it through the first three matches.

Now the point of this isn't "oh i'm so much better than you blah blah blah" What I'm trying to say is that the level of competition on which you are playing is not the level people are grinding to prepare for. You're right, it is overkill to grind to prepare for the kind of stuff you are doing. However, if you never grind, you will never rise above the kiddie pool you're swimming in right now. If you never intend to get into competative play (which is the purpose of the game) then you will never NEED to make your character more adaptable and get all the best upgrades unlocked. However, if you ever do get around to joining a competative guild, you will find yourself at a serious disadvantage.

The majority of the grind comes into play for people who are interested at competing at the top level. To compete at that level demands that you have enough skills to follow the metagame and enough upgrades to not be at a statistical disadvantage. In this case "enough" generally will mean "All" With the exception of one skill... Holy Wrath. That skill is worthless in its current state.

RepinsMirg · May 30, 2005, 11:10 PM // 23:10

I grind but I choose to grind I want every skill in the game with every best weapon upgrade in the game with all the runes... yep I grind alot.

Caco-Cola · May 30, 2005, 11:36 PM // 23:36

Correct me if I'm wrong, and I haven't been to HoH recently, but isn't the fighting to get to HoH only 4-5 stages long?

3rd tier was half way in beta, may of changed since then.

And I"m not bragging about anything. My Mesmer build is by far not the best but I do know how to combine spells and play my class.

And never once did I say that I was better than you.

I'm probably not, I dont' grind after all.

And you STILL haven't defined at what level the game play actually becomes 'competitive'.

It's all been pretty competitive so far. Only once have I had a team just run up to us and start dancing (funny, though 4 of their team members left which is why they did it).

They've always fought back.

Now there's varying degrees to how WELL they fought back but I'm not sure where the line is where it's just "oh you're stupid, shut up you don't know what you're talking about cause you don't play 'competitively and don't grind for 600 hours to get every freakin skill in the game along with every rune" and then where it's actually 'competitive'.

HoH? Arenas? Guild matches? Please, I'm curious.

Done 2/3 of it and am currently seeking to get in touch with a guild (gotta find one of there members, forgot to get the leaders name).